FAQs about Turbos
Turbo motor swapping. Turbocharger cartridge replaced! Overboost cut out feature. Do I really need the cool down procedure on my turbo? How should I break in a turbo? How can I adjust the turbo boost? How can I remove and clean the oil condensation box?
Questions about turbo trouble. What is causing my turbo to sound like a sewing machine whistle? Are oil deposits indicative of impending turbo failure? Is it possible to up the boost on a Volvo Turbo? What should I look out for when buying a Turbo? Turbos at altitude. The turbo gauge measures turbine speed, right? Blue/black smoke, is my turbo going away? Rebuilding the oil cooled turbo. How can I make turbo adjustments? The waste-gate housing top
bolt comes loose and makes an extra exhaust noise.
Thoughts on Turbo Plus Kit. Should my turbo/exhaust manifold glow red after driving?
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 91 10:45:55 EDT
From: mm@lectroid.sw.stratus.com
Message-Id: <9109061445.aa13008@lectroid.sw.stratus.com>
To: johna@gold.gvg.tek.com
Subject: Turbo motor swapping.
> Remember that '81 GLT that was posted for sale here
> on Volvo-net about 2 weeks ago? I just bought it.
Mazel Tov!
> The car (242) has 183k on it but has been maintained
> well and is in very good condition. The motor is all
> original - the turbo was just replaced!. It runs great.
> the only time it blows a little smoke is after a long
> down-hill with engine-braking (high vacuum).
Could just be valve seals...
> While the motor probably has another year or two left
> in it, I am now looking at my options for replacement.
Don't be so sure. This engine is bullet proof. A little regular TLC goes a long way. Don't consign it until you do a compression check and valve adjustment. Maybe just slap a new cam in after having the head machined and valves done? That's what I'm considering with 160k on mine...
> One option is to just rebuild myself, but I'm not
> sure about spending that much of my own time.
So get a regular 240 engine from the boneyard and slap that in while you rebuild the turbo over the winter!
> Another option I'm thinking about is replacing the
> motor with one from a wrecking yard.
Good luck finding a turbo engine ... I'm not saying you won't, but you probably won't be buying anything much better than what you've got.
What I would do is, if you find one from an 84 or 85 buy it and then rebuild THAT one while you drive your current one.
> Can I bolt in a B21F turbo motor from any Volvo??
Yes.
> i.e., any year 242 GLT? How about 7xx turbos? Is there
> a 2.3 turbo that is compatible?
Not sure, check with your dealer on that. I know that my '84 can fit a B23FT, but I think 82 and earlier might not....
> I wouldn't mind getting the 162 HP from the later models. :-)
> (The '81 2.1 has 127 HP, but it sure feels
> a lot stronger than my '85 244 (B230, 114HP).
It's the torque. That's what the Volvo turbo excells at. My '84 GLT (INTERCOOLED) has 190 ft lbs at 10.5 PSI.
Try to find an '84 or '85 and you can even buy an intercooler kit right from VOlvo (you don't have to get it there though).
> BTW, after being used to my 264 and 244 (both 4 doors),
> driving the 242 GLT is a total gas!!
They're great cars and mighty quick...
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1991 11:12:22 PDT
From: John_E_Werner.Wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Re: Turbo motor swapping
To: co@mednt2.sunet.se
There are several comments worhht mentioning about motor swaping and the horse power of the various turbo motors.
First, On motors: The first volvo 4 cylinder overhead cam motor, the B21 came in several flavors. A B19 (1900cc) was available in some third world economys. The B21 and the B23 are widely know for the 200 series applications. There is also a 2.5 liter version of the motor. It is not usually recognized by Volvo Auto Dealers because it was never sold in an auto. It is recognized by volvo marine dealers (sometimes called Penta Dealers). The motor has the same mounts/etc as the normal B23 and B21 motors. It is typically fitted with a different cam that gives a very wide power band (remember, the load on a propeller is always high at any speed, even when you are not accelerating.). You may want to consider rebuilding the turbo motor and boring it out to 2.5 liters in the process. The resulting increase in torque will be worth it.
On Turbo Motors and Output power: The standard B21 FT is capable of 200 bhp with just a little work. By changing the Cam, putting on water injection (to allow cooling of the charges), intercooling, advancing the timing, and raising the boost, the motor can be made to put out close to 350 bhp. The same really applies for the B23 and the B230. One can safely run the boost up to about 14 PSI without worrying about blowing the stock head gasket. You can also increase horsepower by intercooling. Another method is advancing the timing. The ignition timing is very conservative, allowing the car to run onm almost any gasoline available in the US. If you will always be filling up with a High Octane, Name Brand Fuel (Sunoco Ultra, Mobil 93 Octane) you can probably run the advance almost up to 20 degrees. (BTW: My 65 122S can be set to run advance up to 25 Degrees on Sunoco Ultra.) The trick with increasing the boost and advancing the timing is _listen_for_pinging_!_. If you do not know what pinging is, don't even think about making these changes yourself. Making a mistake adjusting the boost or the ignition advance is a very good way to get a new motor.
Another thing that really helps Turbos (and any car for that matter) is reducing the amount of restriction on the exhaust system The Turbocharger works very well at muffling the sound of the engine, so typicall you only need a small muffler. There are some people whho actully run straight pipes on turbo charged street cars. I know a couple of people who have had good success with a straight pipe into a Super Trapp muffler. On my 740 Turbo, I have a straight exhaust from the catalyst back to Flow Master muffler mounted under the trunk. An Ansa Chrome Tip finishes the system and helps take the edge off the sound.
(I guess I really should add: Disclaimer: If you make any of the modifications hhere, you do so knowing that there is a danger of causing damage to your engine and to the emissions system of your car. These changes may be illegal in some states/countries. I will accept no resonsibility for damage caused by making these modifications.)
-- John
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 91 10:55:36 EDT
From: mm@lectroid.sw.stratus.com
To: rao@kodak.com
Subject: Turbocharger cartridge replaced!
> A few weeks ago, I posted a question on rec.autos.tech asking about Turbo
> City, a shop in LA that specializes in replacement turbos.
Yeap, Tubo City knows their shit.
> with comprehensive instructions. But I don't know if I could have done
> better if I'd called Garrett directly.
No, you couldn't have, I checked.
> One thing troubles me though. I undertook the replacement because there
> was what I thought was a serious oil leak.
Did you check the oil return line to see that it was clear of coked and crystalized oil? That's the number one killer of turbo bearing/seals. Did you use fresh seals on the oil input line as well?
> The underside of the compressor
> housing was covered with a film of oil, and the rubber/cloth hose to
> the intake manifold was soaked. The new turbo runs fine (as did the old
> one), but I've started to see signs of oil in the hose again. Is this
> normal (and did I just spend a lot money and time for nothing) or is the
> new unit bad?
Does the diesel have PCV? Flame trap? Check them, it might be blow-by...
Subject: Turbocharger maintenance (was cartridge replaced!)
To: volvo-net@me.rochester.edu (volvo-net)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 91 10:14:03 CDT
From: volvo@zaphod.b11.ingr.com (M Palmer)
Then one day said:
>> One thing troubles me though. I undertook the replacement because there
>> was what I thought was a serious oil leak.
> Did you check the oil return line to see that it was clear
> of coked and crystalized oil? That's the number one killer
> of turbo bearing/seals. Did you use fresh seals on the oil
> input line as well?
This has me wondering.... is there any maintenance that I should be doing to my turbo? I have a '85 740 turbo, and want to keep it in good running order w/o having to replace the turbo. I have noticed very little oil on mine and it uses none/little between changes (3000 mile intervals) but there is a pocket of oil in the low places of the intake pipe. Also, the intake pipe has deteriorated to black mush where the hose clamp has it attached to the turbo housing. Volvo wants $107 for this short pipe (from the air cleaner box to the turbo housing.) It is still air tight, but needs to be changed soon.
Michael G. Palmer | claimer dis:
ether: volvo@zaphod.b11.ingr.com | In no way speaking for
| Intergraph, Corp.
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Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1991 05:40:52 PDT
From: John_E_Werner.Wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Re: Volvo R-Sport catalog
To: damouth.wbst128@xerox.com
Cc: volvo-net@me.rochester.edu, VolvoVoice.all_areas@xerox.com
>I was cruising along at about 65 mph in my stock '86 turbo 740, and floored
>the accelerator to pass a car ahead....
>The rubber hose which takes the turbo output pressure back to the dump
>gate servo had gotten brittle and broken off. Thus, the turbo was running
>wide open, at who knows how much boost. The knock detector/automatic
>spark retard had worked well beyond the normal pressure limit as the
>turbo wound up....
Actually, all of the 700 series turbos, and most other Volvo turbos, come with an overboost cut out feature. It sits under the dash board and hs the sole purpose of preventing damage should the waste gate fail or the boost otherwise go too high. It is djustble to where it comes into action by a screw on its case. When it detects over boost, it cuts the fuel supply. The purpose is to prevent serious damage to the engine.
The effect of hitting the boost limit is something on the order of hitting a three foot thick cement wall. While adjusting the boost on my car, I have over-achhieved my goals and have hit the cut out. BTW: Think about this. What would happen if we bled off some of the pressure driving the waste gate by tapping into the hose that runs to it? It does have interesting possibilities.
A point should be made about the boost cut out. It is a mechanical switch that is designed for seldom use. Constant use is a great way to burn out the contacts, and if you do that, you are not going anywhere. It is probably one of the few spare parts that is worth throwing in your glove compartment these days. (I can already feel the heat from that statement:-)
>I'm still driving a bit nervously, waiting for waiting for damage to become
>apparent, but perhaps I'll be lucky.
You should probably have no problems. The boost cut out is typically set at about 14 lbs of pressure on the 700s. (I have heard numbers from 12 to 15.5 from various sources, but 14 is the most often quoted one.) It is a safe limit of occassional use. The two problems over boost will cause in volvos are pre-ignition. This will be very apparent by loud pinging sounds, and can be prevented by running high octane fuel (i.e. 93+ octane) and water injection (for 14+ lbs applications). A good check for this would be to check the condition of your spark plugs.
The second is a blown head gasket. I have been told by my mechanic that this is not usually a problem until you starting talking over an atmosphere of boost. (The waste gate on his group A pro-rally car stuck open in a recent event. He said is was really great having all sorts of power until the head gasket blew.)
Either way, if something terrible happened, you would have found out by now.
-- John
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 91 21:53:57 EDT
From: wiegman@orion (Herman L. N. Wiegman)
To: martebf3@expert.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: turbo heat
Cc: volvo-net@me.rochester.edu
Brian, et al.
>> unfortunately the hoses would have to be more.. substantial.
> wouldn't this cause problems due to the heat in the oil???
yes, an old fish pump can't do much in a *115 degree C* environment.
The underhood temperatures after turnoff do not affect the water cooled turbos as much as the oil cooled ones. It seems that the water cooled units are much better at disipating the thermal stresses on the turbo unit, than the older oil units.
> My car's first owner was not so nice about idle down procedures as I.
I am religious about it I can assure you, as $800 tends to make one very cautious.
I did not think that the cooldown proceedure was as critical in the H2O units because of the above mentioned advantage. It would seem that if the thermal stress is reduced or removed, you would NOT have to keep the *oil* running in the unit. It may help marginally, but you already mentioned the fact that you are good about "spooling down" before beaming out of the drivers seat. I have heard only praise for the longevity of the water cooled units.
If you are now at 150k miles, you are doing well. It seems that the avg lifetime of the older Garret 3 turbo's was in the 70-90kmile range. The water cooled units should be good for 120-150k miles... careful miles as always.... i.e. don't be popping off the boost regulator hoses :)
herm
tFD
Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 06:31:52 PDT
From: werner.wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Re: Turbo cooldown question
To: wk00624@psilink.com
Cc: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, wk00624@worldlink.com
A very good rule of thumb is to always let the engine idle for atleast a minute before you shut it off. The time you loose will be worth it compared to the time to fix the turbo. What I usually do is to let the song on the radio or tape finsh before I shut it down.
As for warmup, you do not want to use any throttle until the engine oil has come up to pressure in the turbo. The big mistake that many people make is to start the car with their foot on the accelerator. This will lead to certain doom because the turbo is spun up as soon as the car is started.
Lastly, changing your oil every 2500 miles (3000 at the outside). Use a new filter and good quality oil. Synthetics are recommended, but I have had luck with Castrol GTX. My mechanic swears by Kendall GT-1 20W50 in his 350 bhp Volvo Group A Turbo. (BTW: a friend of mine found the original details of the Group A Volvos. They came stock with 300+ bhp.) If you go for a 20W50 oil, remember, it will take longer for the turbo to get full oil pressure when it is cold.
I would stay away from any additives that put any form of solids in the engine oil (molydium, tfe - Slick 50, etc.). This have a chance of building up and causing poorer oil flow. Castrol Syntec Oil does not use solids and is rated at 5W50. It is also on the expensive side. (aside 2: Castrol has been making synthetic oils and selling them mostly in Europe for years. I saw an add for their 20W50 synthetic featuring the Jaguar Supercar in a British magazine.)
--John
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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 91 10:55:08 MST
From: Ronnie Parker
Subject: Re: break-in
To: autox@autox.team.net
>Jim Fuerstenberg. writes:
>Since it is a turbo, I would use Mobil 1, I know they do use
>it in the RUF turbo Porsches.
>I break in a freshly rebuilt race motor by 1/2 hour of running on 10W30 oil at
>various speeds, not under load. I then switch to Mobil 1 15W50 and race the
>sucker. (by the way, thats an 'A' series motor for a Mini)
>JPF
I agree with these statements with one exception. That is the use of the synthetic at such an early stage. I asked a technician whose job it is to prep the Chevy Indy's for the Galles/Kraco team about their oil, and how they use it. He cautioned that the use of the synthetics at an early stage, in their case the Valvoline, in a motor that is to see extended service, especially without "refreshing" is not recommended. The reason is that the Compression and Oil Control rings take a while to "seat" completely. His reasoning was that the synthetics are so "Slick" that his experience showed the "ring seating" process essentially stoped after changing to the synthetics. If they are not completly seated, oil control could be a problem.
His recomendation for a motor seeing street/mild racing service is that the motor should get a 1000+ miles on a mineral based oil. He put his pitch in for using Valvoline at this point. This is also 2 oil changes for the new motor, one at 500 miles, and the switch to synthetic at the 1000+. He also said that babying it was not necessary, and not necessarily wanted. He also cautioned not to "over stress" the engine.
I also was told this same story by a Mobil 1 Representitive when he visited my brothers auto shop. His recomendation was even higher, the change to synthetic should occur at 5000 miles.
For myself I followed the Galles/Kraco guys recomendation of the 1000 miles. Not because he is a "Racing Mechanic" but because I wanted the synthetic benifits in as early as possible.
A side note about Racing Mechanics: The person leading us through the Galles/Kraco Facilities was bragging (I thought he should be complaining) that the mechanics they hire are "RACE CAR MECHANICS" and that there was a difference. The difference being that the sport (CART) was so technically advanced that Auto Mechanics couldn't possibly do the job. He even went farther to say these guys were so specialized, (they only know a single aspect of the car) that they couldn't even tune the cars they drive to work. Ironic huh!
Ronnie P.
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1992 06:11:18 PDT
From: John_E_Werner.Wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Re: no turbo boOST?
To: martenbf@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Cc: John_E_Werner.Wbst311@xerox.com, swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Boost pressure depends on what fuel you are willing to run. I have run mine up to about 14.5 lbs (all the way through the red zone on the boost guage), right up to the fuel cut off. The nice thing about Volvo's Turbos is that the fuel will be cut off if the boost goes to high. The exact point of the cut off is adjustable (nominally 14.5 lbs), but somethings are better left untouched.
The trick with turbo boost is to set it with the worst fuel you ever plan on using, then use the best fuel you can get. When I adjusted the boost on my car, I filled up with generic 92 octane gas. It then set the boost (and timing) so taht the car did not ping. I then went back to my regular fuel, Sunoco Ultra (94 octane).
One more word of caution: If you start seriously increasing the power, you will start stressing other parts of the system. The turbo motor should be able to easily produce 200 bhp with 225 lb-ft torque (put that in your Volvo and smoke a 5.0liter mustang). The problem is wear. Tires wear out. Clutches have a hard time dealing with the power. (I ended up replacing the clutch at 55 k miles and detuning the car a little bit.) U-Joints will also wear faster. "How fast can you afford?"
PS: Other tricks that work well on the turbo is the replacment of the exhaust system with a much freer breathing one. I run a flow master muffler (see IPD) under the trunk of my 740 Turbo with straight pipes from the catalyst. An ANSA Exhaust Tip gets the exhaust out the back of the car and tones it down slightly (mostly gets rid of the boom and lift trotttle gurgling). It is a bit louder then stock when you are really pushing it, but at 65 mph on the highway, it is almost as quiet.
I will happily answer more questions on request.
-- John
PS: I never did find a good way to do a dirt cheap adjustable boost system.
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 11:01:48 PDT
From: maj@frame.com (Michael Jue)
To: nick@meaddata.com
Subject: Re: no turbo boOST?
Nick, I couldn't resist a reply.
Very cool. Dorrseals on the endangered list. Thanks, I needed that.
Now, on to a "rebuttal" of sorts...
Your posting to Alfred@Bellcore states:
>The Turbo+ option is nice, but at $300+, I don't see it doing much for me.
>All it is, is a different FI/Turbo module that fits on top of the air cleaner
>box, in place of the old one (the one that has the computer connection on it).
>I had a parts guy at a local Volvo dealer wish to sell me one thay had, about
>3 years ago, for about $275. I couldn't justify it.
>BTW... quite a few 780's have them.
The Dissenting Opinion, ahem...
Think about it folks, where else can you get 20 hp for $300.?? At $15./hp, that is the lowest dollar/hp gain available that STILL keeps the Volvo warranty intact. Certain caveats apply here: if you bought the car used, the warranty has expired or you just don't care about a warranty then maybe, just maybe, there's another alternative. In any event, here's the real reason for my opposing opinion:
Besides the warranty issue here, however, the Turbo Plus kit, goes one step beyond the "Mead Modification Method" :-) of turning the old boost valve screw in 1/2 a turn. The new/replacement module also hooks into the car's engine computer and "reinterprets" certain data being fed to it and makes corresponding changes/tweaks to any of the following: fuel mixture, allowance of addit. Boost pressure and MOST importantly, allows the distributor to retard under full boost/full throttle conditions. Without this important control function, you'd hand grenade that little 2.3 liter into about .0023 liters.
So, in conclusion, while the Mead Modification Method is a do-able and, if used conservatively, worthwhile "free fix" (not so free if you read John Werner's comments on this issue), you may want to look into this alternative if you still want to bump up the power without the possibility of having to pull bits of engine from between your teeth. OK, maybe over-stated but you get the point.
Oh, yeah, before anyone asks: yes, I do have the Turbo Plus kit on my car.
Just ask the guy in the IROC Z about the little puff of "clear-out-the-combustion-chamber" smoke he inhaled when I passed him at 90. (Open road, clear visibility, multiple lanes, in case any of the safety nazis are waiting to jump all over me...8-)
OK Nick, I await your rebuttal to my rebuttal. (But I still liked your joke.)
Have a day.
Michael
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 09:57:02 PDT
From: maj@frame.com (Michael Jue)
To: E_POZZI@acc.haverford.edu
Subject: Re: no turbo boOST?
>a couple mornings i've quickly noticed that the engine just doesn't feel
>right? no turbo boost-though it still whines
>it redlinse... around 3k and has to be floored to get up to 60mph
Not good. You mention that this occurs only in the morning? Well, I am hoping that you are not performing this exercise until the engine has thoroughly warmed up. Make sure you heed the advice of most mechanics: you may proceed slowly immediately after starting the car, BUT GENTLY PLEASE. Allow the car to warm naturally and let the turbo come up to temperature along with the rest of the moving parts. Avoid or minimize boost until warmed to operating temperature.
Enough preaching. Just remember that a turbocharger, in and of itself, relies on heat to work effectively. The hotter the internal temperature (up to its peak operating temp), the quicker it can provide boost. (OK guys, ease off here, I'm not finished.)
This is not to be confused with the temperature of the pressurized air being fed to the engine. That temperature needs to be as low as possible with ambient temperature (or lower) being optimal (but not usually attainable without an intercooler the size of your trunk).
As far as what the problem might be, I can't say for sure but here are a couple of suggestions/possibilities/theories (help me out netters, I'm really reaching here as I hung up my wrenches about the time PC's hit the market)
1. Throttle switch sticking - I don't even know if the Volvo has such as switch but in my old Datsun Z, I had Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection which suffered the same problem that you've described above. Turns out the contacts (mechanical, like points in a distributor) were worn and were not making correct contact, thereby showing a great resistance drop across the contacts, which, in turn, told (fooled) the onboard engine computer into thinking there was or wasn't enough air flow thereby shutting down the fuel flow.
The throttle switch is/was triggered by the position of the gas pedal, e.g., at any given position, there was a certain amount of resistance that the computer needed to "see." If it didn't, it would respond by either leaning or enriching the fuel/air mixture.
Like I said, I don't even know if Volvo uses this type of system...any help?
2. I think Brian Marten said it best:
>Have you or a trusted mechanic checked the filters, spark plugs,
>timing, etc?
Check the timing! You may be experiencing some vacuum block (unless the Volvo distributor uses mechanical advance, e.g., springs/weights) under cold operating temperatures. Make sure that you are getting the proper amount of advance at low rpms and subsequent retard under boost/higher rpms.
3. Check for vacuum/air leaks at the boost control valve (name?) located at front of the engine, top left. It is possible that the bolts have worked loose and is letting air escape past the gasket. The leak may stop once the engine is warm as the heat expansion of the gasket and/or valve itself have sealed the leak. (You can check for this by using the old "soapy-water-applied -to-the-base-of-the-valve trick; but more noticeably, you'll hear a sound that reminds of an exhaust leak.
FINAL WORD ON TURBO CARE: again, as Brian Marten notes, let the engine idle for at least 30 seconds before shutting it down (avoid the old practice of shutting down the engine while coasting into the pits to get a early start on cool down prior to engine teardown!! :-) )
Sorry if you knew all of this before but just can't reiterate it enough.
Happy motoring and hope you solve the problems. Be sure to let us know what they WERE.
Oh, and have a day.
Michael
Date: Thu, 28 May 1992 09:54:00 PDT
From: John_E_Werner.Wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Re: increasing turbo boost and such
To: V093P9MD@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu
Cc: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Before playing with the boost in your car., realize that increased boost will require higher octane fuel. Relegate yourself to _nothing_but_ hightest. I have increased the boost slightly in my 740 Turbo ('87 4 spd + od) and can do 0-60 in a real 7.4 seconds (meassured with an onboard rally computer).
>Volvo has a contraption out
>that I saw in their after market product catalog,...
There are several ways to increase the power of a turbo volvo. The blackbox you reffered to is (I believe) a Volvo Turbo Plus Kit. It is a simple device that does some re-interpretting of signals for the FI and Ignition computers. It does not increase the boost. Expect to pay several hundred dollars for it. I asked the head of service at a local Volvo only dealer about it. He does not think it really does that much, especially with regards to the cost. I have never tried one.
The simplest way to increase the power is to increase the boost directly. IPD sells 2 kits to do this. One kit changes the pressure going to the waste gate. This kit costs about $10. It is limited in that it is a fixed change, and it may cause a decrease in the speed of response of the waste gate. This decrease will allow you to run over boost briefly.
The other kit consists of a computer and a new waste gate actuator. This system allows cockpit adjustable boost control. It allows full boost up until the trigger level is detected, at which point the waste gate is kicked iin.
The last method involves manually adjusting the waste gate actuating rod. On my 740 T, the assembly is easily seend and worked on from underneath the car. It is a rod with a socket on the end attached to the waste gate. A cotter pin or safety wire holds the rod to the pin of the waste gate. To adjust the boost, lengthen or shorten the rod by rotating the socket end. Do this when the turbo is cold, and make slow adjustments. (Plan on an afternoon or day to get it set.) Shortening increases boost. It is typically 3 turns per psi of boost. Try to only adjust the rod three turns at a time. Once you have made the adjustment, warm up the car. When the engine and oil are hot, check the boost. Find an open road, put the car in second gear (on a manual) and bring the engine up to 3000 rpm. This is around 30 mph. Now, stand on the gas. Note the highest reading of the boost gauge. You may want to use a calibrated meter. If the setting is not as you like, let the turbo cool and re-adjust and re-check. The 740 Turbos have a fuel cut out on over boost. This should protect most of the engine. If you start hitting the boost limiter (very obvious when it happens), back off the adjustment.
*** ALSO listen for engine pinging. If you hear it, get off the gas immediately and Turn the Boost Down!! If you don't you could ended up with a very hefty engine rebuild. ***
Note: Increased boost = increased power = faster wear ?= bigger repair bills. If you start really putting out power, you may start going through clutchs and/or U-joints. Volvo may also have soething to say about the ability to warranty the car.
Note 2: Use Only High Test fuel (R+M/2 Octane = 92)
Note 3: ** Adjusting the boost on an engine can very easily and quickly destroy and/or seriously damage the engine. If you hear loud pinging or knocking, reduce the amount of boost and increase the octane rating of the fuel you have. Take your time and check everything carefully.
-- John
Date: Thu, 28 May 92 10:41:54 PDT
From: maj@m5.frame.com (Michael Jue)
To: V093P9MD@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu
Subject: Re: increasing turbo boost
Cc: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Andre', some weeks ago, there was a thread on Turbo boost (or lack thereof) and during the ensuing "conversation", I offered my *humble* opinion :-) on the Volvo Turbo Plus Kit. Herewith is the basic info that was originally shared with Nick Gough and the net:
----- Begin Included Message -----
From: maj@frame.com (Michael Jue)
To: nick@meaddata.com
Subject: Re: no turbo boOST?
Cc: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Nick, I couldn't resist a reply. Very cool. Dorrseals on the endangered list. Thanks, I needed that. Now, on to a "rebuttal" of sorts...
Your posting to Alfred@Bellcore states:
>The Turbo+ option is nice, but at $300+, I don't see it doing much for me.
>All it is, is a different FI/Turbo module that fits on top of the air cleaner
>box, in place of the old one (the one that has the computer connection on it).
>I had a parts guy at a local Volvo dealer wish to sell me one thay had, about
>3 years ago, for about $275. I couldn't justify it.
>BTW... quite a few 780's have them.
The Dissenting Opinion, ahem...
Think about it folks, where else can you get 20 hp for $300.?? At $15./hp, that is the lowest dollar/hp gain available that STILL keeps the Volvo warranty intact. Certain caveats apply here: if you bought the car used, the warranty has expired or you just don't care about a warranty then maybe, just maybe, there's another alternative. In any event, here's the real reason for my opposing opinion:
Besides the warranty issue here, however, the Turbo Plus kit, goes one step beyond the "Mead Modification Method" :-) of turning the old boost valve screw in 1/2 a turn. The new/replacement module also hooks into the car's engine computer and "reinterprets" certain data being fed to it and makes corresponding changes/tweaks to any of the following: fuel mixture, allowance of addit. Boost pressure and MOST importantly, allows the distributor to retard under full boost/full throttle conditions. Without this important control function, you'd hand grenade that little 2.3 liter into about .0023 liters.
So, in conclusion, while the Mead Modification Method is a do-able and, if used conservatively, worthwhile "free fix" (not so free if you read John Werner's comments on this issue), you may want to look into this alternative if you still want to bump up the power without the possibility of having to pull bits of engine from between your teeth. OK, maybe overstated but you get the point.
Oh, yeah, before anyone asks: yes, I do have the Turbo Plus kit on my car.
Just ask the guy in the IROC Z about the little puff of "clear-out-the-combustion-chamber" smoke he inhaled when I passed him at 90. (Open road, clear visibility, multiple lanes, in case any of the safety nazis are waiting to jump all over me...8-)
OK Nick, I await your rebuttal to my rebuttal. (But I still liked your joke.)
Have a day.
Michael
----- End Included Message -----
Net results: I like the kit but can't honestly say that I have anything to really compare it to (I don't remember what performance was like before I had it since it was installed at about 5k miles and the first 5k were driven very easy to break in the car properly...)
Hope this helps.
Michael (maj@frame.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 11:28:57 EDT
From: mm@workgroup.com (Mike Mahler)
To: mm@workgroup.com, on@nyquist.bellcore.com, swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, alfred@nyquist.bellcore.com
Subject: Re: Need help for a 740T engine
>>Mike M. suggested to check the oil condensation box. Yes, I saw a black box under the intake manifold. What does it do and how can I unclog it. (I don't recall such gismo on my 242GT.)
The oil condensation box is held on with two bolts which are a bitch to get to. There is an outlet on top where the flame trap sits, or in your case just a clear hose. Once you remove the bolts, pull the box out of the car and fill it with gasoline or kerosene and shake it around alot. Do this about 3 or 4 times until you get all the oil out of it. Then dry it off and blow through the holes to make sure they are clear. The hose that going into the top, which leads to the flame trap nipple should be clear and UNKINKED. Sometimes they kink and block off the flow of pressurized gases from the crankcase.
This is real bad since you can blow out some seals. There's also a tube that runs INSIDE the crankcase and hooks up where the oil condensation box sits and you have to take off the oil pan to remove it. DO NOT pull on the rubber flange that you'll see when you remove the box, it's the top of this line and the line is held in place inside the crankcase by a bracket. There's also a rubber o-ring (of course, what else) that sits on the box for the other flange on the bottom (there are two openings on the the bottom and one on top for the flame trap line). You might want to order a new one since the old one probably leaks.
Basically, the box traps oil particles which are heavier than air and are contained in the stream of pressurized gas that runs out of the crankcase. The oil should drip back down into the crankcase, but if the box is clogged, positive pressure will build in the crankcase and blow your dipstick out of it's hole.
I also disconnected the battery for less than 5 minutes to reset the computer; a little longer perhaps.
You really need to do it for a long time so maybe just disconnect it overnight and hook it back up in the morning.
I forgot to mention one thing; when I was replacing the hose that connects to the turbo, I did check the turbine shaft. It turns freely with very little play (original turbo). For 126K miles, I don't mind to replace it with a water cool unit. But it seems OK.
Don't expect it to last much longer. Mine started whining at about 140k and gave up the ghost at 170k. If you have the money, replace it with a water cooled one, it'll run much nicer. But don't bother replacing it until you hear it complaining since it COULD go another 50k, you never know. I just wouldn't expect it to.
I was told there is no flame trap on a 740 turbo. Is that true?
Yes, true. Some mechanics who don't realize this think that another mechanic (or "some idiot") left out the flame trap and they put one in, only to have it clog in a real shot time since turbo's cause more blow-by than normal 240 engines.
But the line still can get clogged so check it by blowing through it when it's routed around the engine.
How to check to waste gate?? On a 745T, is the waste gate vacuum or machanical control??
Both really. It's a vaccuum controlled mechanical unit. You first check for mechanical free play by disconnecting the waste gate link rod and moving the wastegate "arm" back and forth to check for binding. You don't need to check the waste gate diaphragm for pressure since if it didn't work you'd KNOW IT!
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Date: 17 Sep 1992 14:32:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: V093P9MD@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu
Subject: Re: Turbo Trouble
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
If your turbo is indeed about to die, consider replacing the seals. IPD sells a kit to fix sick turbo's. I think it runs about $200.00, compared to $750.00 for a replacement (non-water cooled), up to over $1000.00 for the water cooled. Also you might be able to replace the whole core, for my diesel it would cost about $300.00, the price shouldn't differ much (if any it should be cheaper for the gas turbo since there are so many more of them out on the road).
A question on similar matters to the ellow netters, my 740T behaves similarly to the problems discussed (eg. this weekend I also had to cut a piece of the Turbo Air intake hose because the end had turned to putty, it also starts poorly, without giving it a bit of gas, and the engine pings a bit at high output (it's ben doing it for a while, and higher octane don't help), the turbo seems to work fine though). The question is what help would it be to reset the computer, has it somehow become "corrupted" with bad data? I might give it a try though this weekend (nothing much to lose by trying).
Also I have a 240 ('84) with 110,000 miles that takes to go's to get it started in the morning. It seems in all likelyhood that I have deposits on the valves, I've tried 2 tanks with techron. I've heard about a technique BMW develped to clean (blast) the valves and seats with crushed walnuts. Does anyone know about how to get at the valves without completely dismaneling the engine, and if yes where do I get crushed walnut shells that will work with a sandblaster?
Thanks in advanced,
Andre'
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 15:03:59 EDT
From: mm@workgroup.com (Mike Mahler)
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, V093P9MD@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu
Subject: Re: Turbo Trouble
If your turbo is indeed about to die, consider replacing the seals. IPD sells a kit to fix sick turbo's. I think it runs about $200.00,
I purchased this kit ($180) to rebuild my turbo. However, I'd like to point out that it is not what I would call a trivial task and also that if your housing or turbine blades have met each other personally even for a second, your turbo is not rebuildable. Bottom line is that you need to rebuild the turbo before it starts giving you problems which is sort of a Catch-22. Compared to $750.00 for a replacement (non-water cooled), up to over $1000.00 for the water cooled.
Check out George at 1.800.445.6171, he should be able to do much better than that.
A question on similar matters to the ellow netters, my 740T behaves similarly to the problems discussed (eg. this weekend I also had to cut a piece of the Turbo Air intake hose because the end had turned to putty,...
Your turbo seals are going.
it also starts poorly,...
Your plugs are fouling from the turbo seals blowing oil into the intake stream. In addition, your valve stem seals might be leaking a little oil into the cylinder overnight. ALSO, you might need a new control pressure regulator.
without giving it a bit of gas, and the engine pings a bit at high output (it's ben doing it for a while, and higher octane don't help), ...
The vaccuum advance diaphragm on turbo's have a retard function as well, which comes into play at full boost. Perhaps yours is not working?
the turbo seems to work fine though). The question is what help would it be to reset the computer, has it somehow become "corrupted" with bad data? I might give it a try though this weekend (nothing much to lose by trying).
I reset the computer when I do any ignition or fuel work on 700's. It helps speed the remapping process along.
Also I have a 240 ('84) with 110,000 miles that takes to go's to get it started in the morning. It seems in all likelyhood that I have deposits on the valves, I've tried 2 tanks with techron. I've heard about a technique BMW develped to clean (blast) the valves and seats with crushed walnuts. Does anyone know about how to get at the valves without completely dismaneling the engine, and if yes where do I get crushed walnut shells that will work with a sandblaster?
Call a BMW dealer?
I think they do it through the spark plug hole, though they may not do it anymore. This was a warranty recall for 325's I think.
Your starting difficulties can be quite a few things other than deposits...
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 10:52:57 PST
From: maj@frame.com (Michael Jue)
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Subject: Turbo recommendations
Cc: maj@m5.frame.com, nick@meadddata.com
Well, Bricksters, I located the problem with my "sewing machine" turbo whistle. It was SOOOOOOOO obvious that it was painful: the wastegate/boost control valve was loose. A few turns with an allen wrench solved the problem post haste.
Now the bad news: as I was inspecting the car last night (at 1a.m.) I decided to do a little more checking around. Upon Nick Gough's (thx!) assessment of the possibility of a turbo about to go to snail heaven, I checked all of the lines to/from the turbo, etc. Everything OK EXCEPT, I noticed a small amount of grease/grime buildup at the turbo to intercooler pipe junction. Uh, ohhhhh...
Upon seeing that, I disconnected the pressure pipe at the intercooler and to my horror, discovered oil in the line and in the i/c!
So, now that I'm 85% convinced that the turbo is indeed on its last legs, the following questions (only 85% because I'm going to research the system closer this weekend...maybe it's not the turbo, har har):
1. (I know this is a FAQ type question but...) Who has good prices on high quality stock turbo replacements?
2. What about iPD's replacements (no core charges anymore)?
3. Experience with rebuilt turbos?
4. And the one I'm most interested in: anyone have experience with the iPD High Output turbos? (10-20hp increase; 20% more flow capacity) Also wondering how my Turbo Plus kit would be affected by this...(Gee, I might actually get 200hp out of that little engine yet... :=)
5. Any other wisdom? (My mailbox will fill up pretty quick, I suspect...)
Thanks and Have a great holiday!!
Michael (maj@frame.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 15:07:31 EST
From: nick@meaddata.com (Nick Gough)
To: maj@frame.com
Subject: Re: Turbo recommendations
Cc: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
You may be able to get by with just a core kit, for $124, or so, from IPD, *IF* your housings are in damn good shape.
I bought my rebuilt turbo from Turbo Auto, and they have been very helpful.
I wished that I would have used my friend here in Dayton, as he could have saved me a few $$. Hell, I didn't know that he had access to turbos. Now I do.
Get a copy of Turbo Magazine & look at the ads, then start calling around.
You may also try out Mike Mahler's buddy (I can't remember who & where).
IPD would be a great place to start, though. They aren't the cheapest (least expensive), but they supposedly have good parts. I thought of getting the bigger turbo, but the wife nixed that one, as it cost a few hundred $$ more. Your factory Turbo+ kit should work out just fine.
BTW, I spent about $650, plus core ($150??), plus the water-cooled kit ($115) from Turbo Auto. You may get by cheaper, since I believe that you have a water- cooled turbo in your 87... right?
Oh, don't panic just yet, as your turbo may have some good mileage left in it, but don't go too long.
Ours still whines a tad, every now & then. Supposedly, Garrett turbos are a bit noisier. Is this true, netters? It has great power, and no oil loss, so everything seems OK. Just have to keep tightening that damn bolt on the wastegate housing.
Phone Nos:
Turbo Auto (Roseburg, Or... 800-422-5800) Turbo Auto (Nashville, Tn... 800-669-0472) may ring over to the Roseburg no. if no one is there.
IAP (Dayton, Oh... 513-296-1611) Ask for John & tell him that you know me.
Good luck, Michael.
Gobble, gobble, gobble...
Nick
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 13:45:44 PST
From: maj@frame.com (Michael Jue)
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Subject: Re: Turbo recommendations
Thanks for the responses on this issue!
Got a couple of notes asking "what else are you going to check on your turbo that might be creating the problems...?" [The turbo issue for those you who don't remember the chatter from this morning.]
1. Check to make sure the loose (really loose) wastegate wasn't somehow creating the oil "blowby." (Drive a bit and check again...)
2. alfred@nyquist.bellcore.com suggested checking the play on the turbine shaft. (Thx. Alfred!) If I can figure out how to do this, I will check it. (I just haven't looked at the setup close enough to figure it out :=)
3. nick@meaddata.com suggested checking the turbo bolts (holding the snail together) as well. Will do.
4. Check the air filter for clogging (I changed it recently but maybe I drove through a swarm of Alfred Hitchcock's "Birds" and didn't know it.)
5. Re-check all connections to the turbo and assorted lines running all over the motor.
I'm still not convinced that the turbo is totally bad (it's got mileage on it but...) because, now that the wastegate is cinched back up, the boost is back and I'm not having any of the other typical turbo failure symptoms like smokey running, excessive noise, etc. In addition, I'm not consuming excessive (no more than normal) amounts of oil.
BTW, Nick, I'd heard the same thing about the Garrett vs. The AirResearch...(that it's quieter.)
Alfred, I DO like the Turbo Plus BUT, having put it on when the car only had 5k miles on it, I really can't compare with a "non-kitted" car. I do know that above 3,000 rpms (boost getting pretty good), I can run away from my buddy, who has an '88 740T with no mods.
Thanks again folks!
Michael "I'm already sick of turkey..."
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 16:52:27 EST
From: mm@workgroup.com (Mike Mahler)
To: maj@frame.com
Cc: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Subject: Turbo recommendations
> Now the bad news: as I was inspecting the car last night (at 1a.m.)
> I decided to do a little more checking around. Upon Nick Gough's (thx!)
> assessment of the possibility of a turbo about to go to snail heaven,
> I checked all of the lines to/from the turbo, etc. Everything OK
> EXCEPT, I noticed a small amount of grease/grime buildup at the
> turbo to intercooler pipe junction. Uh, ohhhhh...
There's always a greasy coating on the inside. It's from the compression of the air cuasing condensation of the little bit (unless you have weak rings, then it's "alota bit") of oil vapor from the crankcase vent tube that connects to the turbo's intake hose just before it connects to the turbo.
II's perfectly normal, but is worse on high mileage engines with extra blow-by and on those old turbos with bad oil seals.
Upon seeing that, I disconnected the pressure pipe at the intercooler and to my horror, discovered oil in the line and in the i/c!
There'a a drain cock on the bottom of the intercooler. Just pour a quart of kerosene into the intercooler and slosh it back and forth and then open the drain cock over a bucket.
So, now that I'm 85% convinced that the turbo is indeed on its last legs, the following questions (only 85% because I'm going to research the system closer this weekend...maybe it's not the turbo, har har):
1. (I know this is a FAQ type question but...) Who has good prices on high quality stock turbo replacements?
I got mine from George at TVK (1-800-445-6171). I got a water cooled replacement (advisable if you don't already have it) for my 240's air cooled original one (which was used in the first couple of years in 740's.
2. What about iPD's replacements (no core charges anymore)?
I prefer to stick with Volvo OEM when it comes to high dollar stuff like this. Your choice, but George should be able to do better than IPD on turbo's.
3. Experience with rebuilt turbos?
I had a very BAD experience with one, many people have had great experiences, just be wary. I've heard Turbo City is good, but if you are replacing it with a water cooled version you're going to need the conversion kit from Volvo or IPD.
4. And the one I'm most interested in: anyone have experience with
the iPD High Output turbos? (10-20hp increase; 20% more flow capacity)
Also wondering how my Turbo Plus kit would be affected by this...
(Gee, I might actually get 200hp out of that little engine yet... :=)
Why would you want to? You're really going to put some stress on your mid-aged engine. I'm assuming you have like 70k-100k miles if this is your original turbo. You will also beat the snot out of your clutch.
5. Any other wisdom? (My mailbox will fill up pretty quick, I suspect...)
Buy a new oil feed line with the new turbo (the return line is easy to fix) or at least new crush washers and take the old like out and clean it very thorougly.
Clean the inside of the engine with the old turbo still on. Drain the oil and fill it with about 7-8 quarts of kerosene and let it sit overnight. Then I drained and replaced the oil filter and filled with straight 10w oil and started the engine and let it idle for about 1/2 hour. Then I drained and removed the pan and cleaned it off/out.
Pull the turbo and manifold.
Then I replaced the cam, crank and dist. seals as well as the oil condensation box, it's o-rings and the oil drainback hose that sits into the BLOCK and is held inside the crankcase by a CLAMP!
Made sure the catalytic was clear.
Cleaned out the intercooler and fixed a small hole it had (you should test it for leaks with a vaccuum gauge).
REFILL THE ENGINE WITH OIL and new filter, of course!
Put a small container under the turbo oil feed tube and crank the engine with the ignition disabled.
Filled the turbo with synthetic oil and installed. Then cranked the engine (ingition still disabled) until oil pressure was reached and then waited about 1 minute and cranked again for about 15 seconds.
Then waited about 1 minute and connected the ignition and fired it up and let it idle for about 15 minutes and shut it off and checked for leaks.
Thanks and Have a great holiday!!
Michael (maj@frame.com)
Subject: Re: Turbo Question
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:05:27 -0800
From: mjue@infoseek.com (Michael Jue)
To: "William Ho" , swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu At 8:14 AM 12/12/95, William Ho wrote:
>Car is 86 744Turbo w/B230FT engine w/103K Miles.
>Experiencing a high pitched whine when I try to punch it. This happened before
>and a tear was found in a hose but that was replaced. Mechanic inspected the
>hoes but he says they're all fine. Any ideas?
What's your boost gauge telling you? Are you still under pressure? Do you still have all the power (by seat of pants estimation at least) that you normally do?
If anything is abnormal, look for the following:
As someone else mentioned, check the large diameter tubing going to and from the intercooler. These can come loose or break as well. Sounds like you might have had these looked at already....so....
Also check the bolts that cinch down the boost valve (located top, front center on the B230FT (at least on my '87 it is)). These need to be torqued down periodically if they've ever been unloaded or thread seal was not used. Sometimes it can back out for no apparent reason. I had a power drop off and hissing sound at one time. Turned out the seal on the boost valve had split (it's just a gasket) and the bolts securing it had backed out.
Good luck.
Michael (aka Mic)
'87 744T - 177k
NVBP
VNCC Member #26
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Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 10:32:40 PST
From: maj@frame.com (Michael Jue)
To: gca!faill@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Re: Trouble with Turbos?
Cc: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
> Once I had this tube off, I noticed oil deposits inside
> of it and in the the flexible connectors that the tube
> attaches to at either end. I don't remember seeing oil
> before in these places.
Deja vu at work here...I had the same thing occur recently on my '87 740T. I was freaking out and screaming hysterically about new turbos and seals and this and that...but then the collective wisdom of the net (I think it was Mike Mahler...where is he anyway?) calmed me down.
It might be an indicator of a bad turbo but MORE LIKELY, just some blow by of the oil due to old valve guides and the like...
It's still doing this on mine to some degree but not enough for me to get excited about since the car is not consuming inordinate amounts of oil and the car still runs strong with boost coming on as normal. Probably you're OK so long as you've been religious about your oil changes and other regular maint.
> So now I'm wondering, is my turbo starting to go and one
> of the first symptoms is oil leakage into the intake air?
> Or is it normal for a small amount of oil to find it's way
> into air intake passageway?
> The turbo unit has 86,000 miles on it and its the water
> cooled version.
Mine had 112k on it when I noticed the "problem". We're just touching 120k now and it's still not a problem.
> One last wondering, that rigid tube I described above,
> what is it made out of? It feels very strong and it is
> extremely light. Some sort of ceramic material or an
> metal alloy?
Feels like aluminum to me but I might be wrong...
Happy 'phibing!
Michael (maj@frame.com)
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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1993 06:45:48 PST
From: John_E_Werner.Wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Turbo boost
To: nick@meaddata.com
Cc: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, southern@neit.cgd.ucar.edu
>Hmmm... They *feel* faster, especially if the vacumn hose comes off the turbo,
>and your boost is maxed out at the slightest nudge of the
"go" pedal. :>(
Or this can happen when you have been playing with the waste gate hose and accidently crimped it closed. Volvo is quite conservative on the tuning of its turbos. In full racing tune, a water injected B21FT can put out over 300 bhp. Longevity does suffer some.
The stock boost in Volvo turbos is from 8 to 10 psi, depending on the exact year. The late model 740s got abou 10 lbs from the factory. At 14.5 psi, there is a fuel pump cut off switch. If your boost hist or exceeds 14.5 psi, it cuts the fuel.
Now, the fun stuff. It is possible to up the boost on a Volvo Turbo. At one point, I was running about 13lbs of boost. I estimated the bhp to be well over the 200 mark, with torque over 220 ft-lbs. (Torque, BTW, is what pins you to your seat, not bhp.) The car was very fast, the only stop light drag I lost was to a 5.0 litre Mustang. I should have been tipped off by the loping idle and the apparent lack of exhaust. Still, he had to work for it.
The big draw back of all that power is that the driveline gets a little stressed out. On a manual, this is shown in two major places. One, the clutch, it does not really like all that power and clutch life is reduced. Two, and more importantly, the manual gear box. When you unleash all of the torque on the gear box, especially in first gear, the gear have a tendency to push apart. If the box were made of steal, this would not be much of a problem because the steal would resist being deformed. Unfortunately, the manual gear box in a Volvo turbo is made of alloy. It deforms. Eventually, the internal clearances change and you are left with quite a mess.
Some of you may be questioning this, `What is your source for this info?' This comes from my mechanic, Dan Theil. He ownes a 242, Group A Homologated Turbo, complete with all of the group A options, roll cage, etc. It was his rally race car. He told me that he used to expect to get one to two events on a gear box. When he took them out, the sides were bowed outward. He finally solved this problem with a alloy racing Getrag gear box. It apparently can be easily held in place by one person while another bolts it in. The only failure he has had with this $3000 gear box is when he broke the rear tires loose and did not get off the gas before the hooked up again. The case held, but one of the gear disintigrated. (BTW: One quick check for a true Homologated 242 Turbo is to open the hood. It should weigh next to nothing.)
-- John
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From: Eric Pabo
Subject: Feedback on Turbo 24Xs
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu (Volvo Group)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 16:02:42 MST
Lawrence writes:
>Some questions:
>What should I look out for when buying a Turbo?
>How can I tell if it's intercooled? Both cars had what appeared to be a
>waterline coming down to the front of the turbo from a whitish tank in
>the front passengers side of the engine compartment.
I think what you are describing here is the water cooled turbo. It has a line that comes out of the lower radiater hose, goes through the turbo casing, and then tees into the line going into the bottom of the coolant tank. When I had the turbo replaced on my 1983 245T at 149,000 I had it replace with the water cooled turbo in an effort to make the replacement last longer. I also have switched to Mobil One at change intervals of 3,500 miles because of the abuse the oil takes.
I think the way to spot the intercooler is to follow the plumbing that takes the comprossed air from the output side of the turbo to the intake manifold. On my turbo, which does not have an intercooler (I could have had an intercooler kit installed for about $1,000 when I had turbo replace but decided against it at the time.) the pipe goes directly from the turbo to the intake manifold. On the intercooled it must either detour to an air to air heat exchanger which on most intercooled cars is located in line with the airflow through the radiator or in some very rare cases it is a water to air heat exchanger. (Did any read about the new sports car prototype where the AC system builds a resevoir of liquid refrigerant which is used to cool the charge during periods of high boost for up to 15 seconds or so?)
IMHO the biggest unknown and concern with a turbo is how well maintained was it and was it shut down hot. Volvo recommends 3,500 mile change intervals on the turbos and when I was using non sysnthetic oil I changed at 2,000. When I changed the oil it was noticably hotter than on my non turbo 244. Also, if you have been running the car hard, the turbo can get amazingly hot. It can take up to 5 minutes at idle to bring the turbo back to reasonble temperature. If you shut down the engine with the turbo hot and it is not a water cooled one, the oil that is stranded in the turbo get baked and may break down into shorter chains and form the dreaded coke. If the previous owner never drove it hard the oil changes and hot shut down are much less of an issue.
Other things to check:
1. Condition of the upper radiator horn. Mine broke off.
2. Does it have the turbo catalytic converter or an aftermarket one for not turbos. The turbo cat is located in the engine compartment just below the turbo. (at least on my 1983)
3. Look for damaged/missing insulation on the wiring under the hood. Especially at the large connector blocks on the fire wall. I made a heat shield for one of the connectors out of some thin aluminum scrap.
4. Amount of oil seeps around the turbo.
5. How does the clutch feel. Turbo drivers can be hard on clutches
Well, I have carried on long enough.
Regards,
Eric F Pabo
pabo@hpsmpa.lvld.hp.com
303-679-3947
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Date: 21 Mar 1993 15:00:07 -0700 (MST)
From: crawford@fido.econlab.arizona.edu (David W. Crawford)
Subject: Turbos at altitude
To: nessa@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Vanessa M. Cook)
Cc: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, crawford@gas.uug.arizona.edu
At altitude, having a turbo is better than not having a turbo. Much like at sea level :-) .
Whether a turbo performs the same at altitude as at sea level depends on the type of boost control it has. The turbo compresses the intake gasses. What matters is how this compression is controlled.
_Relative _ Boost: One way the turbo compression, or boost, can be regulated is by adding B to the ambient pressure, A. B is fixed. The induction pressure is I = A + B.
Eg. 1, B = 8 psi, A = 15 psi (sea level), so the engine is getting gasses at 23 psi.
Eg. 2, B = 8 psi, A = 12 psi (on top of mesa), so the engine is getting intake gasses at 20 psi.
In this mode of regulation, the turbocharged engines will suffer performance loss with altitude, just like a conventional induction engine.
_Absolute_ Boost: Annother way of regulating turbo boost is by adding whatever charge is necessary to the ambient intake air to compress it up to I where as before I = A + B, but now I is constant, and the boost, B is controlled to compensate for changes in ambient pressure, A.
A few years ago, Road and Track's technical columist (The column near the end of the magazine) addressed this question, and their answer is the source of my information.
I think Mercedes turbo diesels use _absolute_ boost control; In any case I know of someone who took their 300_D on a British Columbia to Baja Mexico and back rally via 14,000 foot Pikes Peak. Everywhere else he had the slowest car in the competition; above 10,000 feet, he did pretty well.
Incidently, Monroe was one of his sponsors; about a third of the way through the rally, he broke one of the front shocks. He stopped at A Mercedes dealer and replaced all four shocks with OEM shocks, but kept the Monroe decals on.
> Lawrence Buja writes...
> { The 244 belongs to a friend at work and is in real nice shape. I saw it
> { parked in the lot last Saturday and I stopped into his office and asked
> { if he'd mind letting me drive it. We took it down the mesa (~700 foot
> { drop in 3 miles at 5500 feet altitude) and it was just fine. I turned
> { it around and it was just fine going uphill at low rpms. Then the boost
> { kicked in and we started going faster and Faster and FASTER uphill.
> { Whatta rush, it's been awhile since I've been pressed back in my seat
> { that way.
> Remember that Turbos behave the same at altitude as they do at sea level.
> Give or take of course... :)
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From: nessa@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Vanessa M. Cook)
Subject: Re: Turbo Gauge ...
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu (Volvo-Net)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 8:39:38 EST
George Chow writes...
{ The turbo gauge measures turbine speed, right? Anyone know what calibration
{ should be on the turbo gauge? What is the cross-over from black to white?
No. The boost gauge measures the amount of pressure in the intake manifold. The cross over from black to white is supposed to be when you go from manifold vacuum to positive manifold pressure. When you rev the engine, for example, the gauge swings up on the pedal depression and then immediately drops back down as soon as the engine speed stops accellerating upward. However, the turbine is still spinning very fast at this point, even though the boost is back at idle vacuum. That is why you aren't supposed to rev the engine before shutting it off. About the worst thing you could do. Unless you were to be under full load, just off the motorway, and then shut the engine off. I've never known anyone who has done this but...What do you think guys? Would this be instant death or would it take a couple more times to really kill the turbine bearings? :)
Brian.
Tedium and drudgery are good for the soul. :- Boober Fraggle
Date: Tue, 4 May 1993 05:20:26 PDT
From: John_E_Werner.Wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Re: S.O.S. Turbo
To: V093P9MD@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu
>>>>>
I was driving my mom's '85 740 T (90,000 miles), and felt some VERY disturbing things in the engine. As I was accelerating the car started to hesitate when the boost started to rise into the upper half of the T-boost guage, at the same time some blue/black (hard to tell the exact color looking out the rear). This is EXTREAMLY disturbing!! Is this the classic sign of a near dead turbo? The tailpipe also had a layer of soot in it. Neither the 240, or my sisters Crown Victoria had any trace of soot , so this is not normal for a gasoline engine. It seems that I'am spewing oil into to the engine.
If my turbo is about shot, what is the best fix? Should I spoeb spend $200 on the IPD kit and risk a further leak or some other complication, or should I try to get a new core someplace (Turbo City in CA maybe??).
>>>>>
Id doesn't sound like the turbo is blown. A blown turbo is more characterized by the boost taking forever to come on, and then coming on very, very suddenly (the impellers are stuck and finally break loose). It sounds like it could be an ignition problem. When were the plugs and wires last replaced. Turbos can be very hard on these because of their high temperatures.
The black soot is quite reasonable and is to be expected on a turbo charged gasoline motor. It just indicates that the motor has been run rich. The fuel managment system of the car is programmed to send extra fuel when it detects a rise in boost pressure. This is done to compensate for the increased air flow. If you look in the engine bay, you will find that the distance from the intake to the mass air flow sensor is about 6 feet, by the time you unwind all of the tubing and go through the intercooler. (aside: The distance on my carburated B20s is about 6 inches) This means that there is a substantial delay between when the pressure at the intake goes up and the mass air flow sensor sees it. During this time period, you need to make sure the car does not start to run lean. If it does, you can quickly toast the engine. To make sure this is not a problem, the FI system dumps extra fuel in, making the engine run rich.
Next time you get a chance, take a look at any turbocharged car under heavy acceleration, you will notice that it is puffing a little bit of black smoke. This is not oil (usually not oil), but just the on boost fuel enrichment.
-- John
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Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 11:09:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert S. McFadden"
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Subject: Re: rebuilding the oil cooled turbo..
Excerpts from mail: 5-May-93 Re: turbo problem... hopefu.. by
V093P9MD@ubvmsb.cc.buffa
> I ordered IPD's turbo kit repair kit last night. It was
>$140 including shipping. The turbo seemed OK when I spinned it,
>no play in it, and it doesn't touch anything if I try to push
>it side to side.
> If anyone has used the repair kit before, and hits
>that you may have would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Andre'
I used this kit to fix the seals/bearings in my turbo. When I took mine apart the bearings were fine but the seals marginal - there was some coking on the seals and I had been getting progresively smokier exhaust over the last 25k miles.
Your original problem may not require a rebuild - It's normal to get a feeling of power loss when the wastegate opens - the boost stops rising or even drops down some as there seems to be some hysterisis in the way the gate opens. Or possibly your experiencing the broken wastegate hose problem? The black smoke definitely occurs in this case.
Anyway w/ regard to the kit - it is amazing how little you get for $140, A few bolts, locking plates and some small gaskets & seals + manifold gasket (maybe $25 worth) and 2 oil bearings ($100+ seems like a lot for these). After installing this kit, however, I can respect why a rebuilt turbo costs $500+.The Aluminum compressor housing comes off easily enough, but the cast iron exhaust casing required an overnight soak of liq. wrench, a good heating with acetylene torch and some viscious ponding w/ a lead mallet - don't use a steel hammer as the cast iron is brittle. Also you can't remove the bolts holding that evil thing on until it is partially loosened. Also be careful because the impellers are exposed and can be easily damaged if the housing doesn't come off straight. Once both housings are off you remove the bolt holding the compressor impeller on the shaft - this required massive torque also (but don't bend the shaft!). Then slide the impeller off the shaft - a channelock plier with a rag worked for me. After that it all comes apart, I was fortunate to have access to a bead blaster which I would highly recommend for cleaning off the crud, also a bench vise is neccessary. If you do blast it make sure you clean out the particles really well so they don't get into the bearings. Reassembly was easy except one of the brittle c-clips which holds the bearings on snapped and I had to get a new one. It worked out ok considering that I thought I had destroyed the thing after every disassembly step. Final recommendation: don't do this job around small children as the language you use will be bad for their ears.
Good luck, Bob
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 10:40:02 PDT
From: werner.wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Re: turbo adjustments
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
>Can I do better than that? Is there some adjustment I can make so that
>the guage goes to 75 % before the wastegate opens? Is there any kind
>of rough calibration for this guage to estimate actual boost pressure
>in psi?
Yes, you can adjust the length of the rod. To do this, you go from underneath the car. If you slide your head up under about where the oil fiter is, you can look up and see the bottom of your turbo charger. You will also see a rod there that is fastened with safetywire to something going into the turbo. The rod has a locking nut on the same end. Undo the safety wire, and simply shorten the rod. This will increase the boost. The rule of thumb I heard was about two turns per psi of boost change. Lengthening will increase the boost.
Once you have made the change, go for a test drive. get the car in second gear at about 4000 rpm and floor it. If you here pinging, knocking, or hit the fuel cut off, lengthen the rod a little until it goes away. The adjustment may take an afternoon by the time you go through adjusting, warming the engine up, testing, letting stuff get cool enough to touch, then re-adjusting, etc.
BTW: The fuel cut off is the last line of deffense for the engine. Basically, Volvo put it in there so that if something went wrong with the wastegate, the engine will not be harmed.
To be really safe, you should check your plugs and get some idea how hot the motor is burning. You may be running too lean, not knocking and not pinging, but still burning exhaust valves.
So, how much boost can you run? If you modify the fuel system to deliver extra fuel at extreme boost, and you add water cooling, you can probably run about 25 to 30 psi of boost and put out somewhere on the order of 350 bhp. The motor will be reasonably reliable (good for 10 to 20k miles) before you have to rebuild it.
BUT! you will probably leave most of your driveline in a scrap yard before the engine blows. If you have a volvo turbo with a manual gear box, be careful about increasing the boost. You will really strain the clutch. You also run the chance of blowing up your transmition. The volvo turbos got alloy manual gear boxes. They tend not to put up with a lot of power being pumped through them in first or second gear. (The Homologated turbos ran homologated Getrag 5 speed racing gear boxes.)
Automatics tend to fair a bit better, but remeber, you are still putting a lot more stress on the whole driveline, including the u-joints and differential.
--John
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 11:34:42 PDT
Sender: John_E_Werner.Wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Re: turbo adjustments
To: alfred@nyquist.bellcore.com
Cc: werner.wbst311@xerox.com, swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Oops,
>>Undo the safety wire, and simply
>> shorten the rod. This will increase the boost. The rule of thumb I heard was
> ^^^^^^^
>> about two turns per psi of boost change. Lengthening will increase the boost.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
Let me try that again:
shortening the rod = increasing boost
lengthening rod = decreasing boost
>Have you use the Turbo Plus kit?
Nope, I never have.
>Is that the same Getrag in the BMWs?
I am not sure. I know it is an all alloy unit that will run you between $2k and $5k depending on source and condition. A better choice would be to run the 4speed + OD from a non-turbo 240 or 740. They use a stronger, steel case. Volvo did not use the 5 speed from the non-turbo 740s on the turbos, mostly becuase of concern about power handling.
--John
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Date: Mon, 28 Jun 93 13:14:17 EDT
From: nick@meaddata.com (Nick Gough)
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, KCHANCE@acc.haverford.edu
Subject: Re: Loose Turbo Bolt
I am pushing this out to the net, so`s everyone can benefit from it.
My problem revolved around the waste-gate housing top bolt coming loose & getting lost, causing an extra exhaust sound. Drove us nuts.
This is what works, after a long period of trial & error with diff. solutions:
I am now using an aircraft-quality allen-head cap screw with hardened washers (both serated & conventional spring-steel type), with a substance to lock it in place in the hole (not Locktite... but another brand that is BETTER, according to the commercial nut & bolt supply shop that I purchased a few sets of this combo from). The bolt has held thru thick & thin for over 4 mos. The bolt is black-anodized as well. You need to use a 10mm allen wrench on it, but no big deal.
The length should be about the same length as stock.
No damage has ever resulted from loosing a bolt... am I lucky?
It only takes a few minutes to pop the hood, remove the warm-up hose over the turbo, and take a peek at the waste-gate housing & its 5 bolts. If they are all there & are snug, then you're OK. But, then, you need to take a look-see at the exhaust manifold bolts and the rest of the bolts on the turbo. Not a big deal to check, but a pain to replace, though. If one or more of the w-g housing bolts are loose or missing, then follow my suggestion above as one method of solving the problem.
Remember, when tightening the nuts, to only tighten them until the washer compresses, as you are dealing with a steel bolt in an aluminum housing. I have no idea what torque setting they should be, as no turbo shop could tell me, but be careful to not tightne them too much... let the hardened lock-washers & goo do the work for you (all turbo shops told me this), or whatever means you use to hold them in.
I also put them in with the turbo being barely warm, not cold or hot.
BTW, the factory (Garrett or Mitsubishi for some wagons) uses the same goo for holding the bolts in place (not Locktite).
Good Luck & I wish that I could remember or find out the name of the locking goo... If I do, I'll post it.
Nick
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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:53:54 -0800 (PST)
From: tim@sr71.arc.nasa.gov ((28.8)Timothy Takahashi)
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, John Kupiec , costrat@primenet.com (Jay Veneaux)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Turbo Plus Kit
At 11:51 AM 11/24/95 -0500, John Kupiec wrote:
>I've given some semi-idle thought to the idea of installing a Turbo+ >kit on my 1986 744T (137k miles).
Jay writes : >I don't know anything about Turbo+s but if you want perfomance check >out Group 6....
Jay, you seem HIGHLY intrigued by Group 6's car... since you've mentioned them a number of times in recent weeks, perhaps you can post something more substantial.
As for the Turbo+ kit, it consists of an electronic module located in the engine compartment which senses engine rpms and provides a secondary control to the wastegate actuator.
In all of the Volvo B21/23/230 turbos, the turbocharger is fitted with a mechanical wastegate. A wastegate is a device which diverts exhaust flow around the turbochargers impeller blades - reducing boost pressure. The wastegate is controlled by a pneumatic solenoid plumbed indirectly into the intake manifold.
On early 200 turbos, the wastegate was adjusted so that boost would be limited to about 5psi maximum.
On the intercooled 200 turbos, there is a simple electronic control module (which in conjunction with a modified wastegate) that senses engine rpm. Below 3750rpm, the engine is limited to 7psi boost. Above that engine speed, additional boost is allowed.
On later 700s (87->), the system becomes more sophisticated yet. The knock sensor is integrated into the wastegate control electronics (a la Saab APC), and some provisions are made to modulate the wastegate during manual transmission upshifts, etc. On these later engines, a secondary electronic module (the Turbo+ kit) may be installed. It allows momentary periods (a few seconds) of higher boost at high-rpms, this increases the peak specific output of the engine from 162hp to 188hp.
Since John Kuipec owns an 86 700 turbo with the earlier control system, the Turbo+ kit is NOT an option. For increased specific power output, the wastegate can be adjusted so that the high/low boost settings are higher. The caveats of this are plentiful, I have known MANY turbo Volvo's with altered boost levels that while awe-inspiringly fast, tend to eat u-joints, transmissions, motor mounts, etc.
I will not succumb to overboost temptations. I'm accelerating somewhat more slowly, with considerably better prospects for reliabily, with my non-turbo 140hp B23E.
-tim
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Takahashi EMAIL : tim@sr71.arc.nasa.gov
M/S 247-2 (AA/AAL) PHONE : 415-604-4976
NASA Ames Research Center U. Rochester Alum
Moffett Field, Ca. 94035 & Swedishbrick Enthusiast
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 10:25:44 -0800
To: tim@sr71.arc.nasa.gov ((28.8)Timothy Takahashi), swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, John Kupiec , costrat@primenet.com (Jay Veneaux)
From: mjue@infoseek.com (Michael Jue)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Turbo Plus Kit
At 6:53 PM 11/26/95, (28.8 wrote:
>At 11:51 AM 11/24/95 -0500, John Kupiec wrote:
>>I've given some semi-idle thought to the idea of installing a Turbo+
>>kit on my 1986 744T (137k miles).
>
>Jay writes :
>>I don't know anything about Turbo+s but if you want perfomance check
>>out Group 6....
>
>Jay, you seem HIGHLY intrigued by Group 6's car... since you've
>mentioned them a number of times in recent weeks, perhaps you
>can post something more substantial.
>
>As for the Turbo+ kit, it consists of an electronic module
>located in the engine compartment which senses engine rpms
>and provides a secondary control to the wastegate actuator.
[snip]
>On later 700s (87->), the system becomes more sophisticated
>yet. The knock sensor is integrated into the wastegate
>control electronics (a la Saab APC), and some provisions are
>made to modulate the wastegate during manual transmission
>upshifts, etc. On these later engines, a secondary electronic
>module (the Turbo+ kit) may be installed. It allows momentary
>periods (a few seconds) of higher boost at high-rpms, this
>increases the peak specific output of the engine from 162hp
>to 188hp.
Echo on... Tim speaks of the T Plus kit's inability to fit pre-87 cars. True. And, early '87 cars could not use the T-Plus either. Nor mid-late '87's with Auto Trans... (or something like this, as I recall). FWIW, my car was the first '87 model in California to have the Turbo Plus installed but not until AFTER an updated control unit was installed that made it suitable for use in AT equipped cars. (This didn't cost me anything at the time...the dealer wanted to "test" the upgrade so I got the retrofit for the cost of the Turbo Plus itself.)
After '87, the kits were modified to work with automatic transmission as evidenced in the B230FT equipped 780 Coupe rated at 188bhp.
This is a "safe" modification on a newer car and did NOT void the new car warranty back then. I would question the validity of adding the kit to a worn engine as the results will probably NOT be as satisfying as one might expect in the price range.
Keep in mind that the Turbo Plus unit does something especially important that an "artificial" (tweaking the boost rod) mod does not...it sends an electronic signal to the ECU telling it that there's indeed more boost coming on and therefore, the correct amount of timing retard is applied to avoid hand grenading the motor through detonation. Verrrrrry important....
Were I doing it all again (buying the car new and ticking the checkbox under "options" :=), I'd still get the Turbo Plus; but as an afterthought add-on, probably would not just because of the cost.
Michael
'87 744T - 175k
VNCC Member #26
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Subject: Re: Glowing Red Turbo
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 23:23:36 -0800
From: ad366@lafn.org (Dana Adams)
Reply-To: ad366@lafn.org
To: jaos@pclink.com
CC: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu >My question for turbo owners: Is it normal for the turbo\exhaust manifold to
>glow red after driving?
>Thanks much,
>Jared 85 245TI 120kmi (original turbo I think)
Yes Jared, they get really hot. They will glow red, or sometimes even orange, if you have just climbed a hill under turbo boost. That's why it is important to let them idle for a minute or two before shutdown to help the turbo cool. When shut down while still red hot, the oil that is inside the turbo will tend to "coke" up, and will eventually wear out the bearing. The water-cooled units still get quite hot, I have one, but they don't get quite as hot as the oil-cooled ones.
Dana
333
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